#chatterlings Special Chat Event: BDSM Q&A

Hosted by
JZ Sharpe

Log file opened at: 4/5/02 7:00:00 PM
*** kahtt has set the topic on channel #chatterlings to BDSM Q&A in session
JoanZS: Okay, kahtt's changed the topic, so I guess it's official. Who wants to throw out the
first question?

Sandaidh: why?
Sandaidh: what do you get from it?
JoanZS: It's kinda like throwing out the first ball at the ball game.
JoanZS: hmmm... lots of things.

*** Signoff: Caitlain (Ping timeout)
JoanZS: The realization of fantasies, for one.
JoanZS: Inspiration for writing.

andrew: I am really confused by the 'consensual' aspect
JoanZS: How so, Andrew?
andrew: when is it consensual and when coercion?
Sandaidh: I'm sorry, but I find pain and humiliation abhorant
JoanZS: that's fine, Sandaidh. Bear in mind that BDSM is not all pain and humiliation!
andrew: I know that most people involved it is consensual
JoanZS: In fact, that's the more extreme end of the scale.
JoanZS: That's right, Andrew.

Lynne: I'm not into pain either San - but their are other aspects of it
andrew: but I am concerned that some people may be coerced into it
Sandaidh: I guess I will never quite understand
andrew: worried about losing their lover...
JoanZS: It does happen, Andrew. Although I often think that happens in stories more than real
life. After all coercion makes for a good story.

Ruby: SAnd, you might find this book interesting. "When Someone YOu Love is Kinky."
JoanZS: But in real life, it's not always a good thing.
Ruby: It explains some of the why's, but mostly it's aobut acceptance of things that simply
*** Jude (Jude_Maso@odojr.cable.cr.island.net) has joined channel #Chatterlings
*** Mode change "+o Jude" on #chatterlings by andrew

kahtt: that was fast jude
JoanZS: Hi, Jude!
Jude: hi everyone, thank you Andrew
andrew: Hey Jude! lol
Sandaidh: it just seems like there's been an...overabundance of the pain & humiliation type of late
Jude: hi Kahtt, Joan, San.... oh boy
Ruby: Bear in mind, those are stories. They are fiction.
Ruby: Hi, Jude!
Sandaidh: thanks ruby
Jude: What was fast, Kahtt?
andrew: Joan pointed out before that it is just fiction
Lynne: If the dom (me) is caring - which - as in every relationship should be the case - that
would not happen
Sandaidh: ruby - got an author for that book?
Ruby: Dossie Eaton and Catherine Liszt
Ruby: Easton?
Sandaidh: I know they're just stories
JoanZS: The same people who wrote The Bottoming Book, which is also excellent.
Sandaidh: but so MANY of them...too many
Ruby: But think action/adventure stories.
Sandaidh: turned my stomach
JoanZS: Yes, Ruby!
kahtt: When Someone You Love is Kinky
andrew: But I must admit that I don't like reading all give and no take
Jude: San, it goes in cyles
JoanZS: That's true, Jude.
Ruby: Then its' not for you, Sand. It's really that simple.
Sandaidh: I know that ruby
Ruby: Just like bell bottomed pants. :)
kahtt: Jude I told you to come to chat in the reply email and you apeared
Ruby: Sand, may I ask a question?
Sandaidh: sure ruby
Jude: you did, I haven't got the email yet... LOL
JoanZS: Andrew, it may appear to be all give and no take, but that's not the case either.
*** Caitlain (caitmccarr@ has joined channel #chatterlings
Jude: hi Cait
*** Mode change "+o Caitlain" on #chatterlings by Sandaidh
kahtt: The New Bottoming Book
Caitlain: Like a bad penny....
Lynne: In a My Master always said the slave was the one who was really in charge!
kahtt: well you read my mind then Jude
JoanZS: welcome back, Caitlain.
JoanZS: That's absolutely right, Caitlain. I even wrote a flasher about that.

*** Lesly (Lesly@24-164-154-106.nyc.rr.com) has joined channel #chatterlings
JoanZS: The "bottom" can call an end to the action at any time, by using the safeword.
kahtt: The Topping Book : Or, Getting Good at Being Bad
*** Mode change "+o Lesly" on #chatterlings by kahtt
Lesly: hi
JoanZS: And if there's no safeword agreed upon by the parties, then it's not safe, IMHO.
Ruby: Don't we, though, Jude! LOL
JoanZS: Hi, Lesly!
Jude: Another thing, the couple make up whatever rules, limits there are if it's going to
be a long term relationship
andrew: brb
JoanZS: And in order to make those rules, there has to be lots of communication.
kahtt: The New Topping Book
JoanZS: In a good BDSM relationship, the rules grow and change.
Jude: communication and trust
Lesly: can't limits change, over time?
Lynne: He can help her find her limits - but no way would he force her to do anything that
she really couldn't do
JoanZS: Absolutely, Lesly.
Jude: the same as in any relationship
Sandaidh: what was your question ruby?
Ruby: I'm trying to find the right way to word it so that it doesn't sound like a criticism.
kahtt: The Art of Sensual Female Dominance : A Guide for Women by Claudia Varrin -
Sandaidh: oh-h
Caitlain: No dumb questions save the unasked ones....
JoanZS: We've had some very gentle BDSM stories in the past, i.e. Slo Kiss has done some
stories where one party gets tied up with silk scarves, etc. Hardly painful or humiliating.

andrew is back
Jude: nice back
Sandaidh: brb
Lesly: have you-all read Cyan's erotica
JoanZS: Andrew is more than just back.
Jude: nice front... LOL
JoanZS: I've read a couple of her pieces.
andrew: thanks
andrew: jude
andrew: ha ha ha <blush>
Sandaidh: back
Jude: D/s isn't about pain
Lesly: Great plots, lots of bdsm, kink, etc.
JoanZS: Yes, I like Cyan's stuff very much.
JoanZS: Yes, Jude, as I said earlier (maybe before you got here), the whole pain thing is
only a portion of the BDSM spectrum.

Lesly: Wish I could write like that.
andrew: I have difficulty separating fiction from fantasizing about D/s
Sandaidh agrees with Anndra
JoanZS: That's interesting, Andrew -- could you elaborate? I'm not sure I understand.
andrew: The Spanking by Cathy O'Neil to me, just seemed violent
Sandaidh nods
Caitlain: I suspect because so much about BDSM seems fanatsy for most....
andrew: I found no redeemimng love in it
Jude: it was violent, but if the couple had agreed that they wanted to engage in that
particular way it's their choice
andrew: I have difficulty keeping that separate from what evreyone tells me D/s is like
Ruby: It's all about choice.
JoanZS: I'm pulling up the story to refresh my memory.
andrew: both are just Ideas in my head
JoanZS: That's right, Ruby. And I think that's what a lot of outsiders don't realize.
There is always a trap door, in a consensual relationship. The safeword is a very powerful thing.

Jude: I believe when Cathy posted that story she also said it was quickly done, not one of her
better efforts
andrew: what I really need is to experience it
Sandaidh: for me it's all tied in to anger
Ruby: D/s can be simple or very complicated. I read of a woman whose husband/Master made
her keep quiet by giving her a kiss. SHe couldn't talk again until he kissed her again.
JoanZS: Yes, I'm afraid it wasn't, Jude.
Ruby: Until then, she had to sit on her butt plug. :)
JoanZS: phone, brb
Sandaidh: the only time I 'stray' that way is when I'm *very* angry
Jude: anger should never be involved with any D/s activity IMO
kahtt: lovely ru
Ruby: Not very elaborate, surely not painful, but fun and definitely a power exchange.
Lesly: What about anger pushing one over the edge of boundaries?
Sandaidh: yes
JoanZS: That's pretty dangerous, Lesly.
Sandaidh agrees with Lesly
Jude: now you're straying into abuse, I think
kahtt: Andrew you may want to check out this site - Understanding BDSM what is it all

Caitlain: Supressed anger, though, I think a very important psychological element in some
BDSM relationships..
kahtt: that's a chat log
andrew: I will Kahtt, thanks
Caitlain: The active word there is 'supressed.'
Lynne: I've got a poem in which I try to describe it - but it's too long to post here
Jude: Abuse is Abuse no matter what kind of relationship you're in
kahtt: Also try - The Sexual Health Network - Sex Therapy, Expert Education
Sandaidh: agreed jude, and maybe that's why I'm so...sensitive?
andrew: is it to relieve supressed anger?
kahtt: SexualHealth.Com is a good resource
JoanZS: Some people might view it that way, Andrew.
Caitlain: True enough, Jude, but not all expressions of anger lead to abuse.
Ruby: Sand, if someone knew you would absolutely love a full body massage and a new dress,
and they went out of their way to get them for you, would that be abuse?
Jude: that's true too Cait
kahtt: By Gloria G. Brame, PhD, MPH starts off her article with "One of the most misunderstood
areas of human sexuality is paraphilia, and specifically the realm of BDSM/fetish sex."
Sandaidh: depends ruby
Ruby: Is someone knew that Miss X wanted to pretend to be kidnapped and "forced" to have sex
with the man she loved, would that be abuse?
Sandaidh: if it meant the last $ in anyone's pocket...it could be
Ruby: So someone who gave you a gift could be abusing you?
Sandaidh: yes - odd as that sounds
Ruby: Then that's more likely the issue here. The giving of the gift, not what the gift is.
Sandaidh: would depend on how it's given I s'pose
Lesly: sounds strange kind of "gift"
andrew: BDSM is like any other sexual activity, there are going to be a certain number of
JoanZS returns
Jude: Andrew yes, but don't make the mistake of thinking BDSM is only a sexual relationship
for all
Caitlain: Where's Dawnie?
JoanZS: Not here yet.
Ruby: What is a gift, Lesly?
andrew: No, I realize it is not
JoanZS: In fact, Andrew, BDSM XXX movies don't depict the sex act very often.
andrew: I am coming to grips with it, but it has been a struggle
Caitlain: For me, great sex is just a byproduct of the experience.
Lesly: I guess it takes many forms; in the broadest sensem, what someone wants.
JoanZS: That's right, Lesly, in much broader terms than many think. A lot of people just
see the pain and think that's all there is.

Lesly: How about no sex in bdsm?
Ruby: And if this is what you want, and someone makes sure you get it, it's a gift, yes?
Jude: Cait, yes, it's not the sex that's the aphrodisiac, it's the control issue
JoanZS: Some people very badly want to control someone else. They want to "play" at controlling.
Sandaidh: and that scares the shit outta me
JoanZS: Others want very much to give up control - to someone they can trust.
Lesly: A pro dom/domme usually does not provide sex. Correct?
andrew: My problem with it is, I have difficulty separating fiction from D/s since D/s is
just an abstract concept in my mind
Jude: San, could that be because of your marriage issues though
Caitlain: Control isn't really the 'thing,' for me either. It's just the tool.
JoanZS: Sand, that is why one must know one's BDSM partner very, very well.
Sandaidh: how do you tell the difference
Jude: Lesly correct
Sandaidh: how do you tell the difference between "playing" and the real thing
Lesly: And the client understands this.
JoanZS: Andrew, I'm still not sure I understand you. Isn't fiction just an abstract concept too?
Jude: San, that's where the communication and trust come in
Sandaidh: yes, jude, I'm sure a bunch comes from my marraige
andrew: yes, that's why I have trouble separating them
JoanZS: If you have a hard time trusting others, then BDSM is not for you.
Caitlain: San, what's wrong with asking, if observing.
Sandaidh: since communication and trust were lacking
Sandaidh: not understanding cait
Jude: but other's have the right to their way of happiness, even if you hate it
Sandaidh: yes, jude, I understand that
Sandaidh: and tis why I unsubbed rather than "go off the deep end" at everyone
kahtt: For definitions - Understanding the Lifestyle: What is D/s And BDSM?
Sandaidh: canna speak for anyone else
Caitlain: If your in the middle and it seems like abuse to you, then you need to be out,
because perception for YOU is reality. However if you're observing from the outside, what's
wrong with asking the participants?
Sandaidh: kahtt - can you put all these website in an email or log someplace for those of us
dinna write that fast?
andrew: JoanZS: to repeat, My problem with it is, I have difficulty separating fiction from
D/s since D/s is just an abstract concept in my mind
Sandaidh: that's what I'm trying to do now cait
kahtt: Advice on finding a partner and dating - BDSM:Dating and Communication
kahtt: chat's being logged
JoanZS: Andrew, I'm having a really really really hard time understanding what you're trying
to say.

Ruby: Andrew, I'm not sure I understand. D/s fiction exists, just like any other fiction.
Caitlain: San, will we lie to you?
andrew: yes, that's why I have trouble separating them
Jude: Andrew, what you're saying is until you experience it, it's either fantasy or fiction
kahtt: it's a lifestyle Andrew
Sandaidh: I hope not cait - but I'm having some real trust issues right now which make it hard
Lesly: A well-know situation (at least to pros) is the special feeliny of someone who is
usually in control giving it to someone else.
andrew: yes, Jude, right on
JoanZS: About the links - the chat's being logged, so you can copy and paste the links from there. Or if you see one you want, copy it into a notepad document for later use.
Jude: I can understand that
andrew: I can just conceptualize it
kahtt: and just like all lifestyles unless you've experienced it it's not real for you
kahtt: in a BDSM relationship as in all others communication is key
Caitlain: Well, San, trust is what this whole subject matter is all about.
Sandaidh: where do we find the log?
andrew: and I have difficulty distinguishing it from fiction
JoanZS: We'll post it when the chat is done, San...
Jude: hhmmm not sure how that can be fixed Andrew
Sandaidh: okay - thanks
kahtt: Read this article on communication from BDSM Realm
andrew: Only experience...
Caitlain: Trust is what is exchanged in a BDSM relationship. Trust is the very thing that is
Sandaidh: brb
JoanZS: Andrew's question bothers me a bit as a writer though. If a story is well written,
I would think it would be less abstract.

kahtt: andrew do you think beastiality and necrophilia is fictional also?
Ruby: Oh,
Ruby: Oh, Andrew, sorta like, I know what Antarctica is supposed to be like, but I've never
been there, so it's still only a concept.
andrew: I have never done either
Lesly: Post it to all of ERA, right?
andrew: not really Ruby, since it is grounded inreality
Caitlain: Control, over behavior and to a lesser extent thought, is the tool used to test that
kahtt: StormCat of Dark Delusions wrote - Trust in BDSM
andrew: I read BDDSM stories and "have" to accept them at face value since I know no better
kahtt: will post link to era Lesly
JoanZS: Andrew, I have never had sex with another woman. Yet it's not an abstract concept.
I mean, I have all the same parts. :-) Yet, I don't seem to have the same problem that Andrew

kahtt: every been in a threesome andrew?
kahtt: or an open relationship?
*** sia{Az} (Azraels@AC8DE599.ipt.aol.com) has joined channel #chatterlings
Jude: <-------- offering assistance here
kahtt: hi Azrael
JoanZS: Hello, sia{Az}!
*** Mode change "+o sia{Az}" on #chatterlings by kahtt
andrew: never in a threesome, at least not by choice
Jude: hi Azrael
sia{Az}: hello, JoanZS and kahtt
andrew: doesn't mean I wouldn't be though
sia{Az}: hello, Jude
Ruby: Hi, there!
Caitlain: Sex, since it is emotionally so connected to the fight or flight response, is the
sensation exploited to bring intensity to the experience.
kahtt: ASIDE: note everyone is a TOP in this chat unless they want to be a bottom ;op
Lesly: hi
kahtt: so Andrew do you believe threesomes and open relationships exist?
Sandaidh says Anndra is doing better at asking her questions than she is
andrew: they can but it is a different loving I think
JoanZS: There you go, Andrew. And so is BDSM.
Jude: bingo
kahtt: andrew I think you should do a little experiment
andrew: do I get the prize?
Ruby: Gee, A Different Loving... :)
Caitlain: Different loving, sounds like a great book title....
kahtt: try writing a dom flasher
Ruby: GMTA, Cait. :)
andrew: what's that Kahtt?
JoanZS: It already is, Caitlain! :-) Best book about D/s around.
kahtt: Different Loving : The World of Sexual Dominance and Submission
kahtt: by Gloria G. Brame, et al
Jude: LOL
Caitlain: Yes, Joan, I was being sarcastic.
andrew: kahtt: I have started on a bondage quickie
JoanZS: I know, Cait, I saw your sarcastic hat. :-)
kahtt: write a short story in 100 words or less about a couple where one person is more
dominant that the other
Caitlain: Hard to miss, as I seem never to takke it off....
JoanZS: That would be easy for anyone to write, kahtt, and would not have to include any of
the traditional BDSM stuff.

kahtt: drew: if you started a bondage quickie then you are already exploring domination
JoanZS: It could be just two people, one has more power, one acquiesces.
Lesly: I've done that sort of flasher, but hard to really get into the details.
andrew: you mean a regular relationship or D/s
Jude: Andrew, push your boundaries here if you can
JoanZS: Could be a regular relationship! Lots of regular relationships trade power back and
forth all the time.

kahtt: remember D/s is a regular relationship Andrew.
Ruby: BZZZZZZZZZZZ You hit a word, Joan!
Sandaidh: kahtt - you've read The Binding (all that I have of it)
Ruby: Traditional... Traditional BDSM
andrew: I am going to Jude
JoanZS: Yikes, Ruby!
Jude: LOL
Ruby: So many folks read what they think is *traditional* BDSM, when it's merely what sells!
andrew: I will continue on my quickie, it's |D/s
JoanZS: "Traditional BDSM" is what a lot of people see, and they think it's all that.
kahtt: yes! Sandaidh's saga would be a good read for you andrew. It's romantic and the BDSM
is believable
andrew: is bondage D/s ?
Lesly: What's nontraditional bdsm?
Sandaidh: but there is no BDSM in it
andrew: are they 2 separate activities?
JoanZS: They don't realize that even in the most vanilla relationship, there is a shifting of
power from one person to another.
JoanZS: Bondage is an aspect of D/s.
JoanZS: But once again, just like pain, it's only part of the pie.

Jude: Andrew, it can be but not necessarily
andrew: but can they be completely separate
Caitlain: Andrew, they can be separate, but often are joined.
kahtt: san: sure there is if we break up the acronym. there is bondage, bending of will,
saddists (captain)
Lesly: Can be, can be many other things. I have an old story about that which I may re-post.
Jude: Andrew, a Dom may never bind his or her sub
Ruby: Andrew, BDSM is a catch-all phrase, unfortunately.
*** Signoff: Ruby (Read/Dead Error: Broken pipe)
Caitlain: Bondage and Domination is part of the BDSM pantheon.
Sandaidh: yes, and no, kahtt
Lynne: Wives and Lovers is about a woman in an abusive relationship who meets a Dom - and is
terrified of loving him because of his lifestyle BTW
Sandaidh: perhaps on the Captain's part
andrew: certain aspects appeal, but only certain
kahtt: san: true. I see many relationship levels in The Binding though
JoanZS: Then you're completely normal, Andrew.
kahtt: lol
JoanZS: No one has to like everything on the BDSM smorgasbord.
Sandaidh: but there is certainly NO ...dam I forgot the word I want
kahtt: andrew nornal?!
*** Ruby (ruby@user-2ive1do.dialup.mindspring.com) has joined channel #chatterlings
Sandaidh: not coersion,
Sandaidh: consensual
*** Mode change "+o Ruby" on #chatterlings by kahtt
kahtt: masochism
Sandaidh: NONE of it is consensual
Lynne: She asks the same sort of questions that San and Andrew have done
andrew: what a relief, for a moment I thought I was crazy
kahtt: san: the son who was kidnapped et al, went to the binding willingly
Jude: hhmm I thought you were too... LOL
Sandaidh: and kahtt, all those scenes/parts were written as a way to constuctively redirect my
Lesly: speaking of relief - brb due to pee need!
Sandaidh: Yes, Shay participated in the ritual
andrew: hb
kahtt: he trusted his father's people
Sandaidh: because he was his father's son, and understood duty
kahtt: trust is key
kahtt: DomSubFriends: BDSM vs. Abuse
JoanZS: Very true, Kahtt.
Sandaidh: yes, after all that he went through he did trust Rasha and his people
kahtt: "The key difference between S&M and Abuse, is "consent"."
Lynne: And love
Lesly: kahtt - can you post all those great links to ERA?
Jude: thank you Lynne
kahtt: the aforementioned site compares them well
andrew: does self-destructive behaviour ever enter into it?
Jude: it can, Andrew
Jude: unfortunately
Sandaidh: but kahtt - even though Shay went willingly, he'd have been taken forcably if he hadn't
kahtt: when we post the log we'll email the URL to ER&WA
sia{Az}: excuse me a moment, please..
andrew: should that be allowed
kahtt: yes Az?
*** Signoff: sia{Az} (Quit: The gripping intensity that brands her with His dominance and love.
The passionate and pleased gaze that fires her blood. she is forever embraced.)
Caitlain: Only as contra-indicator
kahtt: oops Az meant to leave
Ruby: In *any* relationship, vanilla or BDSM, there can be self-destructive people.
kahtt: yes
Jude: Andrew, it's between consenting adults
Lesly: Basic question: what can consent mean to somone who has not ever experienced what has
been proposed?
Lynne: Wow - some sign off line!
Sandaidh: good question Lesly
Caitlain: Lesly, can you ride a bicycle?
andrew: true Lesly
Lesly: Yes, so what?
Caitlain: Could you always ride a bicycle?
Lesly: no
Caitlain: OK. Did you work with the training wheels or just get on and ride?
Lesly: I did not expect pain or humiliation from riding a bike.
Jude: okay Lesly, did you want to learn to ride the bike?
Lesly: Not exactly.
Caitlain: You could have fallen? Twisted and ankle?
Lesly: Sure
Lesly: True
kahtt: they would have to learn to trust and their partner would have to earn that trust
through patience, compassion, communication and action
andrew: so your saying vanilla sex is like training wheels?
Ruby: No. Vanilla sex doesn't have to be any more than vanilla sex.
andrew: understand Ru
JoanZS: Yes, I don't think that's what Cait is driving at, Andrew.
Lynne: But you might have fallen off and hurt yourself - but you risked it for the ulimate
pleasure and feeling of accomplishment it gave you
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*** Mode change "+o penfold" on #chatterlings by andrew
*** Mode change "+o penfold" on #chatterlings by Sandaidh

Lesly: hi Todd
Sandaidh: hiya todd
Lynne: Hi Todd
kahtt: hi todd
JoanZS: Hi, Todd!
andrew: Hi Rodd
penfold: thanks and morning everyone
Caitlain: No. I'm answering Lesly question about what does consent mean to someone inexperienced.
All it means is there's a willing to discovery, just like she had to be willing to try riding that
Ruby: If we're sticking with the bike analogy, vanilla sex is swimming. One thing has nothing
to do with the other.
JoanZS: Good answers.
andrew: ok
Caitlain: Sorry, I mangled the syntax.
JoanZS: Makes perfect sense to me, Cait.
andrew: me commenting on bdsm is like the preist giving advise on sex??
Lesly: I guess the issue is *informed* consent.
JoanZS: Which priests do every day, Andrew.
Jude: Lesly is goes back to communication here as well
Caitlain: Actually, priests give excellent advise about sex.
JoanZS: Lesly -- exactly!
andrew: BIG mistake
kahtt: priests can give advice on sex, they are human!
andrew: everybody else does
Lesly: Some may know a LOT about sex LOL.
Sandaidh: and some know a lot about abuse
andrew: they give the current church doctrine
Sandaidh: from the giving side
Lesly: I take that back, it's not funny - abuse of kids!!
JoanZS: So, let's take some more questions...
kahtt: well there are some people who had sex and relationships before marrying God
*** Kenn (whitesight@pool-151-196-239-85.balt.east.verizon.net) has joined channel #chatterlings
Caitlain: Doctrine often becomes doctrine because it works for some majority.
*** Mode change "+o Kenn" on #chatterlings by kahtt
*** Mode change "+o Kenn" on #chatterlings by Sandaidh

Lynne: Hi Kenn
Kenn: hi all
JoanZS: Hi, Kenn...
andrew: 'lo Kenn
Kenn: thank you
penfold: hi Kenn
Caitlain: Hi DL.
Lesly: hi there Kenn
kahtt: kenners
Jude: hi Kenn
Kenn: s nice the welcome:)
Ruby: Hi, Kenn
andrew: that's true Cait, doesn't make it correct
Sandaidh: okay - so it's a matter of trust...
Jude: San, yes it is, has to be, just like in any good relationship
Lesly: Where is Charlie - he had questions to ask.
Sandaidh: I have a friend whom I trust with my life, yet I wouldn't want him to spank me, etc
JoanZS: By the way, Charlie just sent a message to the list -- he's trying to connect but
can't get in.

Caitlain: Doesn't make it wrong either, it requires testing, to know if it works for you.
andrew: San, I think spanking is just a small part
Jude: San, not everyone does
Ruby: I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I think it might also be a matter of confidence,
trust in yourself, not just the other person.
andrew: right
JoanZS: That's just because spanking is an activity that doesn't appeal to you. It could be
any activity. Your friend might like NASCAR racing, but you don't. No big deal.

Sandaidh: tis hard for me to separate them then
Lesly: Oh - spankin buddies, and other buddies!
Sandaidh: no...he likes cooking shows and I don't
JoanZS: Once again, spanking is just a small part of it.
Caitlain: That's OK, San. However, if you wanted to be spanked, would you want it to be someone
you didn't trust?
Sandaidh: sorry, but tis linked together in my mind
Jude: any kind of pain may not be involved
Sandaidh: don't want to be spanked - *ever*
Lynne: I'm into bondage - and rape fantasy - but I wouldn't let my husband spank me - it's not
my thing either
andrew: It's a buffet, you don't have to like it all, or any of it
Sandaidh: then I s'pose I'll just stand off to the side without a plate
andrew: bring a brown bag
Caitlain: But San, can't you enjoy watching other people eat?
JoanZS: that's fine, Sand -- you'll notice that no one here is forcing a plate on you.
JoanZS: (Andrew, put away that bag!)

Sandaidh: yes I know
andrew: LOL
Lynne: i would have said the same thing 6 years ado San
Sandaidh: am just *trying* to understand some so I don't get overwhelmed like before
Lynne: ago
andrew: ado?
Lynne: OK - it's late here!
Lesly: I can't help wondering what Tigeer would think of this conversation.
andrew: poor Lynne
Lynne: LOL
Ruby: You guys are an extra hour off from the US, right?
andrew: 2:00 am here
Lynne: A bit of suffering is good for me!
JoanZS: Listen, Sand, I think some of your strong reaction to this stuff has to do with some
baggage from the past for you. Which is just FINE. This is how we learn and heal ourselves
from the past.

Lynne: 3 am here
JoanZS: We don't turn the clocks back until tomorrow night.
Kenn: well, tie my ass to the bed
Ruby: I think Europe did it last weekend.
Caitlain: OK.
Kenn: sorry
Lynne: Kenn!!
andrew: so we're 6 hrs diff?
Jude: bring your ass here Kenn
JoanZS: It's like someone who had a bad case of food poisoning, and now they don't want anything
to do with food.

Ruby: It's 8PM here.
Lynne: OK <eg>
Sandaidh: perhaps joan
Kenn: can I bring some extra baggage?
JoanZS prods the conversation gently back to the topic.
Ruby is sorry....
Caitlain: Little after 6:00 here.
Sandaidh: little after 5 here
Lynne: I was a victim of attempted rape 4 times in my life - yet enjoy rape fantasies -
work that one out!
JoanZS: So, besides the torture of losing an hour of sleep tomorrow night -- what else would
you like to discuss, BDSM-wise? Or BDSM-writing-wise

Kenn: after sex here
Ruby: I think tying Kenn's ass to the bed qualifies as BDSM
JoanZS: I do too, Ruby.
JoanZS: Lynne, that is very common!
JoanZS: You know why?

Jude: and he did offer
Lynne: I think so
Kenn: be gentle, I'm a virgin at this bndage stuff
JoanZS: Because during the real rape or attempted rape, the victim has no control. Yet in a
fantasy, the victim has ALL the control.

Ruby: So it's consensual.
Lynne: In my fantasy I ultimetly have control - which I didn't in the past
JoanZS: Bingo!
Lynne: It also excludes the memory of the real thing
andrew: BDSM question: does Stockholm syndrome apply in any way to BDSM
JoanZS: Margaret Atwood wrote a great story about rape fantasies.
Lynne: After all - I am doing it with someone I love
Lynne: And there's another reason too for me
Ruby: and TRUST
Caitlain: Stockholm syndrome?
Jude: ya got me there Andrew, what's Stockholm syndrome?
Kenn: how much pain is involved in this thing?
Lynne: As a child I was taught that sex was a duty - and I shouldn't really enjoy it
Kenn aint into pain at all
Jude: only as much as you like Kenn
Ruby: Kenn, how much pain to you want?
Sandaidh: isn't that where the kidnap victims join up with the kidnappers?
Lynne: If I'm forced it's not my fault
Kenn: none
andrew: where a kidnap victim sympathizes with the kidnapper
andrew: more than sympathize
Jude: Kenn, then I'll just tie you and tease you till you beg, how's that?
JoanZS: Oh, I don't think that has too much to do with it, Andrew. Once again, it's a separate

Lynne: That's right Ruby
Caitlain: Well, I weild a mean feather, Kenn!
Kenn: o.k.
andrew: but it's the same kind of logic
andrew: maybe...
JoanZS: Not in most cases, though.
kahtt: that's not consensual andy
Kenn: can under stand the ropes
Ruby: ONe of my first memories related to sex was my mother leaving the bedroom buttoning
her blouse, complaining that is was the middle of the DAY! And I thought, if he wants you, what is your problem? Get back in there!
andrew: do you remember Patty Hearst and the SLA?
Jude: yes
Kenn: yes
JoanZS: Yes, but are you saying that a BDSM participant is just going along to make his/her
captor happy?

andrew: the bank robbery ?
Jude: she didn't seek what happened to her
JoanZS: That's very different from seeking out a D/s relationship.
andrew: no, but she participated in the robbery
Kenn: at gunn point
andrew: she was sent to jail
Jude: yes, Andrew, but after going through a lot
Kenn: she wt her pants when arested
andrew: gun point lost
Kenn: true
Lynne: That's a means of defense
Sandaidh: again back to the consensual part
andrew: yes, consensual and coercion
JoanZS: Yes, but then, what you're saying is that "the bottom can't really want to go along,
can they?"

Sandaidh: maybe they don't know any better
Caitlain: Trust me, Andrew, I'm entirely willing. I'm not goaded or directed into accepting a
D/s relationship.
Sandaidh: don't know any different
andrew: no, because I know that generally they do want to go along
Jude: San, maybe they do though, give them that
JoanZS: Andrew, I think you're having a hard time believing that someone would actually want
someone to hold them in a D/s relationship.

Caitlain: If I'm conditioned, it's been as a willing participant.
andrew: that's not true Joan, I can understand
andrew: I am not saying everyone is unwilling
andrew: just that some might be
*** Signoff: Lynne (Quit: Time to put theory into practice!)
JoanZS: In the end, Patti Hearst made a choice. She could have he
Caitlain: Then it is not consensual, not BDSM, and abuse.
JoanZS: She could have held out and not participated in the bank robbery. But she gave her
consent, and went along.

*** Lynne (Lynne@a31061.upc-a.chello.nl) has joined channel #chatterlings
Caitlain: WB.
*** Mode change "+o Lynne" on #chatterlings by penfold
*** Mode change "+o Lynne" on #chatterlings by Kenn

Sandaidh: seems to me that the lines are very fine...and very grey
Lynne: Was lagging
Jude: that's what it all comes back to, consent and wanting to be where you are
Lynne: Thanks
andrew: that true but is coercion consensual?
Kenn: wet aint she
Lesly: hi Lynne
*** Charlie (crwxxx@ppp226.tc-1.roc-pt.ny.localnet.com) has joined channel #chatterlings
*** Mode change "+o Charlie" on #chatterlings by penfold
*** Mode change "+o Charlie" on #chatterlings by kahtt
*** Mode change "+o Charlie" on #chatterlings by Sandaidh

Kenn: well, swing my balls!
Sandaidh: hiya charlie
Lynne: Hi Charlie! You made it!!
kahtt: cool Charlie is here
penfold: hi charlie
Kenn: hi harlas
Jude: hey Charlie you made it
JoanZS: See, Charlie, I told you you'd make it!
Caitlain: No, coersion is abuse, and by definition not BDSM.
Charlie: am I here
andrew: I mean if someone doesn't want to do it
kahtt: "The key difference between S&M and Abuse, is "consent"."
Ruby: Hi, Charlie!
Kenn: whos got some rope;)
andrew: but their partner begs and begs
kahtt: DomSubFriends: BDSM vs. Abuse
JoanZS: If someone doesn't want to do it, then it's not consent.
Jude: Andew, if someone doesn't want to but is willing to try it you mean?
andrew: they do it but not wanting to
andrew: is that abuse?
Caitlain: Begging is not coersion.
Jude: do they willingly try?
andrew: yes
Ruby: If their partner begs and begs, and they say yes, then they have agreed.
JoanZS: Then that's not coercion. The key is "willingly".
Jude: they can get out of it if they wish?
Ruby: It's consensual. Ill advised, perhaps, but consent, nonethelesss.
JoanZS: If the partners have agreed on a safeword, you betcha, Jude.
Lynne: If the partner knows they really don't want to do it - yes - but a good Dom would know
that already - through communication so it shouldn't happen
JoanZS: That's right, Lynne. A good dom has a LOT of responsibility.
andrew: I accept that
*** kayla`` (kayla_@btg846sby48wi.bc.hsia.telus.net) has joined channel #chatterlings
JoanZS: Hi, Kayla!
Jude: hi Kayla
*** Mode change "+o kayla``" on #chatterlings by andrew
*** Mode change "+o Lynne" on #chatterlings by Kenn

Lynne: Some BDSM partnerships have detailed contracts which would exclude things like that
Caitlain: Hi Kayla.
kayla``: hello everyone
Ruby: A sub has a lot of responsibility, too, to be honest and communicative about what
she does and doesn't want.
Sandaidh: just too many...too much all tied together for me
Ruby: Communication is critical to the entire relationship.
Lesly: A pro dom/domme spends lot of time trying to establish limits.
kahtt: hi kayla
Jude: Ruby, she or he please
Ruby: Hi, Kayle
penfold: hi kayla
kahtt: s/he
Sandaidh: most peoples don't communicate at that level though
Lesly: Hi
Lynne: With rights of the slave and Master
andrew: hi Kayla
Ruby: What, Jude? What'd I do?
Kenn: evening My LAdy
Lynne: A lot are far more thought out that most vanilla marriages!
Jude: Ruby, you assumed that the submissive was female
Lynne: Hi Kayla
Caitlain: That level of communication is one of the attractions to the Lifestyle for me.
JoanZS: In a D/s relationship, Sandaidh, communication is the key.
Sandaidh: there seem to be lotsa keys then
JoanZS: If one wants a good D/s relationship, one HAS to communicate.
Jude: San, it's the same for any relationship
Lynne: If you like I'll send you a copy of my contract San!
Sandaidh: and what happens if one doesn't know what one wants?
Sandaidh: tis okay lynne
andrew: do you really have a contract Lynne?
Lesly: I have a title for a story - Majoring in Communications
JoanZS: I think if you surveyed D/s and non-D/s couples to learn about their communication
skills, the D/s couples would come out on top.

Lynne: Yes
*** ruby2 (ruby@user-2ive1ep.dialup.mindspring.com) has joined channel #chatterlings
Caitlain: Then don't, or start slow and progress.
JoanZS: No pun intended, of course.
Sandaidh: the poem arrived, but I haven't read it yet
Kenn: expermenrt very carefully
*** Mode change "+o ruby2" on #chatterlings by Jude
*** Mode change "+o ruby2" on #chatterlings by kahtt
*** Mode change "+o ruby2" on #chatterlings by Sandaidh

ruby2: Thanks. :)
andrew: is that normal Lynne?
Lynne: Though the relationship is actually over - but we're still very good friends
JoanZS: If one doesn't know what one wants, then one does research.
Jude: Andrew, define normal
Kenn: ME!
andrew: usual
JoanZS: Lynne, I'll bet you're still good friends because of the communication aspect.
Sandaidh: kenn you're above normal
kayla``: thing is you don't just jump into a contract though
Jude: I've heard of quite a few D/s relationships with contracts
Lynne: Very true Joan
*** Signoff: Ruby (Ping timeout)
kayla``: contracts come after you know the person (at least usually)
Lynne: They are negotiable too! LOL
ruby2 Ruby
JoanZS: A contract is a good thing, although not every relationship has one. But it gives the
couple an opportunity to get it all out on the table.

Caitlain: Jude, I could help you there, Would you like the definition of mean, median, or modal?
andrew: I think I understand Joan
Sandaidh: brbgg put socks on
Jude: Cait?
Charlie: I don't understand a contract
Jude: things that are expected of the Dom and the submissive
Sandaidh: back
Charlie: you write it out what you want?
JoanZS: Yes, Charlie!
Lynne: If you like I'll send you mine Charlie
JoanZS: And you write out what you don't want, too.
Charlie: What all is that you do?
Caitlain: Well, when the word 'normal' comes up in conversation most people mean average.
Thopse are the three statistical types of average.
andrew: Lynne, could you send me a copy?
Kenn pictures being all tied up and wife voids contrat
Lynne: Will do Drew - email addie?
JoanZS: Charlie, I'm not sure I understand your question.
andrew: amessent@blueyonder.co.uk
Caitlain: That breaks the trust bond, Kenn.
Lynne: OK - brb
Kenn: and my ass most likely
ruby2: You have a contract, Lynne?
andrew: thanks Lynne
Kenn: and yes I trust my wife
kayla``: brb
Charlie: Do you sign a contract telling the dom only what he can and can't do?
Jude: each contract is different Charlie
JoanZS: Not everyone does, Charlie. And it tells both the dom and the sub what they can and
can't do.
JoanZS: Jude is right, no two contracts are alike. But there are lots of good examples out there.

andrew: makes sense
JoanZS: It's not like those tablets of leases you can buy in the stationery store! LOL!
Caitlain: I'm going to need to go for a few minutes. Be back in a few.
JoanZS: See ya, Cait!
andrew: hb
Jude: Joan, one day huh?
*** Signoff: Caitlain (Quit: Our torments may, in length of time, become our elements. - Milton)
Sandaidh: true, makes sense, but I'd still have problems trusting someone to hold to it
JoanZS: I can see it now, you know how they have "write your own will" software...
kayla``: back
JoanZS: Then, Sand, while BDSM might be right for others, it wouldn't be with you. And that's

Sandaidh: I already know it isn't my thing joan
JoanZS: If anyone has any suspicions that someone isn't going to hold to a contract, then they
shouldn't sign. This goes for ALL contracts, not just D/s ones.

Sandaidh: sorry - I just have some "issues" to deal with and am not doing very well
kayla``: pain isn't my thing either Sandaidh, pain doesn't have to be included in BDSM - it's
only one component
andrew: BRB
Sandaidh: it's just hard for me to...un-link them
JoanZS: I understand, Sand. It takes time.
Jude: Joan, it's back to communications and trust
JoanZS: Precisely, Jude!
kahtt: Charlie: Consensual BDS Contract
Charlie: Just how far do people go into this pain.
JoanZS: I wouldn't sign a lease with someone I didn't trust -- same for a D/s contract!
ruby2: Sand, can you understand and respect that, although it's not for you, it may be
acceptable for someone else?
Sandaidh: yes ruby
ruby2: Then that's all you need to do, Sand.
Kenn: pain does nothave to be part of BDSM
Charlie: tell me about it
Jude: that's right Kenn, pain may or may not be involved
Jude: I think someone had a feather in here awhile ago, that's a great way to drive someone
kahtt: All about safe words etc. - What BDSM means?
Charlie: i like ice cubes
ruby2: As long as you had permission to drive them nuts with a feather...
Jude: Charlie, I do too
Sandaidh: I like cold Ben Wa balls
kayla``: Charlie people get into pain as far as whipping and cutting....to a simple spanking and
everything in between
Jude: San, that could work too... no binding, nothing
Charlie: i enjoy pain but yet.........
*** Patti42 (Pat@CPE0005022e7612.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined channel #chatterlings
JoanZS: Hi, Patti!
Patti42: Hiya Joan!
*** Mode change "+o Patti42" on #chatterlings by Kenn
kahtt: Explains the element of pain in a D/s vs BDSM relationship
penfold: hi patti
Kenn: evening My LAdy
Patti42: Hi tod
Jude: San, if someone you trusted and loved told you to lay on the bed and be still then
teased you with icy cold ben wa balls it could be concidered D/s
Patti42: Hiya Kenn
kahtt: hi patti
Patti42: *hugs* kahtt
Sandaidh: okay...for me...pain purposefully applied is a...diversion from emotional pain
Jude: hi Patti
ruby2: Hi, Patti
Lesly: hi patti
Sandaidh: I canna understand getting pleasure from it
Patti42: LOL...hi everyone
Lynne: I'm going to have to get to bed folks
kahtt: "D/s itself is a partnership. Two opposite personalities forming a relationship
based on love, respect and mutual understanding. D/s doesn't have to involve the use of
pain or humiliation, BDSM however, usually does."
JoanZS: Good night, Lynne, sweet dreams.
Sandaidh: night lynne, thanks
Kenn: ust ask
Lynne: Hi Patti
ruby2: Night, Lynne
ruby2 Ruby
Kenn: night My LAdy
*** ruby2 is now known as Ruby
Lynne: Night everyone
Patti42: Hi Lynne...night
JoanZS: A diversion from emotional pain might be considered a form of pleasure.
penfold: night lynne
*** Signoff: Lynne (Quit: Time to put theory into practice!)
Charlie: nite Lynne
Jude: night Lynne
kahtt: eep missed her
Sandaidh: no, it is *not* pleasurable
JoanZS: If you watch cartoons on TV, when the news is on and you could watch that instead,
that's a diversion that would perhaps more pleasurable.

Patti42: Hey Charlie! Never seen you in chat before.
kayla``: here's a great link that gives descriptions of many many bdsm activities.
andrew is back
JoanZS: The cartoons might be dumb, but the viewer watches them to avoid the painful
images on the news.

Kenn hides his wallet
kahtt: the pain and pleasure centers are not that far apart san. somethings that can
bring pain may also bring pleasure
Sandaidh: not the same thing joan
JoanZS: How is it different, Sand?
Sandaidh: understood kahtt
Sandaidh: when I crashed a couple weeks ago, I woke up in the middle of the night...
JoanZS: Note that I'm not advocating BDSM as a way to run from your problems!
Sandaidh: I'd been scratching my arms real hard in my sleep
JoanZS: (that's an editorial "your" by the way)
Ruby: Look, folks, I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but it seems to me that we have
spent over an hour and a half trying to convince folks who have already said that
Sandaidh: that physical pain was a manifestation(?) of the emotional pain inside
Ruby: BDSM isn't for them but it;s okay for others, to try BDSM/
Ruby: Is that the purpose of this chat?
Lesly: Have to leave, gang - bye to all!
Sandaidh: there was no pleasure in it...it HURT
Sandaidh: night lesly
Jude: night Lesly
kahtt: from Webmistress.org "For submissives, pleasure is obtained by achieving the
Dominants pleasure and the Dominant may choose to reward the submissive sexually." -
JoanZS: Well, we're here to answer questions, Ruby, and that's where the questions have led us.
Kenn: night
JoanZS: Good night, Lesly!
penfold: night lesly
Sandaidh: no ruby, not trying to convince...educate
kayla``: nite Lesly
kahtt: night lesly
andrew: bye Lesly
*** Signoff: Lesly (Quit: )
Charlie: I'd like to know how far some people go into it and just what they really do?
Ruby: That hasn't even been talked about yet, Charlie. Only defending it.
kayla``: Charlie, it's only limited by your imagination
JoanZS: Wow, that could take all night to answer, Charlie!
Kenn: Kahtt! can you email me some of the web site addies?
JoanZS: Kayla's right.
Charlie: forgive me
Sandaidh: kenn - kahtt says it's being logged
Jude: forgiven
Kenn: pk
Kenn: ok
Sandaidh: and the log will be posted
Ruby: Forgive you for what, Charlie?
Ruby: Sorry, maybe I spoke out of turn.
Kenn: charlie had a good question
kayla``: this is my BDSM link collection
JoanZS: Some people go very deeply into it. It becomes a 24/7 thing for them.
Ruby: Charlie had a GREAT question!
JoanZS: It shapes their whole lives!
Kenn: how about giveing some of us newbies to this stuff some ideas
Charlie: you talk and defend it. Why not say what you do?
Jude: Charlie, some people will willingly become slaves to another
JoanZS: But for other people, it's just for fun.
kayla``: Charlie we all 'do' different things....
JoanZS: I have a friend who shares a lot of the same interests as I do. He likes bondage,
he likes a little spanking and whipping, but he doesn't get carried away.

Charlie: That's not answering my question
Jude: then clarify please
JoanZS: He LOVES gags, slapping some duct tape over the sub's mouth.
JoanZS: Charlie, I think if you took a look at some of the contracts, and some of the limits
questionnaires that people use, you'd see the wide spectrum of activities.

Kenn: seems more like a fetish thing
Charlie: i agree
kayla``: it's totally individual. it would be like asking you to tell us what you do
JoanZS: Fetish is a part of it, Kenn, but it's not the whole thing.
kayla``: how do you explain that?
Sandaidh: I think charlie's asking not what 'you' (general) do, but what *you* specifically,
personally do
JoanZS: Some people don't do anything with toys or extraneous objects.
Sandaidh: but I could be wrong
JoanZS: For my friend, toys are a big part of it.
Kenn: what kind of toys?
Charlie: by what means
Ruby: Fisher Price?
JoanZS: Dildos. Butt plugs. Various kinds of floggers.
Jude: Charlie, are you asking for our personal likes?
Sandaidh shudders
JoanZS: But of course, I believe that any inanimate object can be turned into a sex toy.
Charlie: hell that's not d"s that just fun. LOL
Kenn: hahaha
Ruby: LOL
Jude: LOL
Ruby: That's exactly it, Charlie! I'ts FUN!!!
Ruby: Hell, folks, if you're not having fun doing it, you're doing it wrong!
JoanZS sticks a big gold star on Charlie's forehead.
Jude: it's fun for those that like it
Charlie: so if I enjoy that I'm into d's?
JoanZS: Well, that's the WHOLE point. If it's not fun for you, then it's not for you.
Jude: <--- sticks a nice big gold star on Charlies butt
JoanZS: The toys are just the props.
JoanZS: Just because you have a ten inch vibrating dildo in your toy bag, that doesn't
make you into D/s necessarily. It's how you use it.

*** Caitlain (caitmccarr@ has joined channel #chatterlings
Charlie: DAMN! I'm into D's
*** Mode change "+o Caitlain" on #chatterlings by penfold
*** Mode change "+o Caitlain" on #chatterlings by Kenn

JoanZS: welcome back, Cait.
Caitlain: The bad penny returns....
kayla``: it has a lot to do with power
penfold: wb Cait
Jude: hi Cait
kayla``: the toys are props
andrew: wb Cait
Caitlain: Thanks.
Charlie: taht's what I want to know. \
Jude: Andrew, your still awake
JoanZS: My friend has a suede flogger that, when dragged gently over naked flesh, is the
most wonderful, sensual feeling I've ever known.

andrew: yeah, Im here
Sandaidh has never used toys with anyone else, so she has no concept of it
Charlie: How far and when is the change over
kayla``: when your and your partner decide it's over
JoanZS: Charlie, you're a man. You don't get to have The Change. :-)
kayla``: for some of us. the power exchange is 24/7
Charlie: wait a minute
andrew: the change over?
JoanZS: For my friend and I, we don't see each other very often. So we decide it's over
when we have to go home.

Caitlain: Is 24/7/365 for me.
Charlie: you say that using toys is d"s? Is that right?
kayla``: lucky Caitlain!
Jude: no Charlie
JoanZS: No Charlie, the toys are just a prop.
Charlie: If so isn't every ony into d'S?
kayla``: D/s is about the power and how the power exchange is used
Ruby: To a certain extent, Charlie, it can be that way, yes.
Charlie: I'm confused here
Caitlain: No, I don't think you are, Charlie. It just seems that way because it's a lot to grasp.
Charlie: I love to use a dildo and a vibe on a lady but we didn't call it D's.
Ruby: Dominant and submissive are personality types.
Jude: it's not D/s
Charlie: We also did what ever I wanted after that. Does that make me a dom?
JoanZS: If you used a dildo on a lady, aroused her, but told her she was not allowed to
come until you said she could, that would be D/s.

Kenn: no, lucky
JoanZS: Kenn's right!
JoanZS: If you just used the dildo and made her come, that's NOT D/s.

Charlie: Ohhhhhh
JoanZS: And if she did whatever you wanted afterward, she was being VERY VERY nice to you.
JoanZS: Actually, in a way, if she did whatever you wanted, she was surrendering to you.

Sandaidh thinks Charlie's lady was the lucky one
kayla``: being your 'bottom' sort of
Ruby: D/s is about who is in control and of what.
JoanZS: That's right, Kayla.
Jude: as long as she was enjoying the surrender... *G*
JoanZS: Oh, I'm sure she was. ;-)
Charlie: whats a bottom? *s*
JoanZS: a submissive
Jude: and you'd have been the top, or Dom
Caitlain: Bottom is the person giving up control.
*** Kenn is now known as AAkenn
kayla``: in my mind the terms Top and bottom denote more JUST the physical apects of BSDM
play without the power exchange on an emotional level
Sandaidh: then my saying, and believing, that his pleasure is my pleasure makes me a sub/bottom????
penfold: In reality the sub is top due to the power of consent is the ultimate power
Ruby: Not necessarily. A Dom looks out for the sub's pleasure, too, so one's pleasure is
the other's.
Sandaidh: whew!
JoanZS: that's right, Ruby. It's a two way street.
kayla``: it's not a selfless relationship on either side. though many people like you to
believe that
AAkenn: have to go, straighten house, wife due home, have grandsons here, enjoy all and thanks
Sandaidh: night kenn
Jude: night Kenn
JoanZS: Come over here and straighten my house when you're done, Kenn.
penfold: cya kenn
Ruby: Night Kenn
Charlie: this isn't the BDSM caht I thought it would be...beleave me
Caitlain: Bye.
*** Signoff: AAkenn (Quit: Leaving)
JoanZS: What did you expect, Charlie?
Caitlain: We do.
kayla``: as a submissive, my desire is to please my dom - i get pleasure from that, but he
in turn, likes to give me pleasure, he controls how it is given. he gets pleasure in that
Jude: what did you want it to be Charlie?
JoanZS: You want us to go into down and dirty detail?
Charlie: I don't know....maybe...I don't know
JoanZS: Well, what would you like to talk about, Charlie?
Ruby: I understand, Charlie. I didn't know what to expect either. :)
*** Dick (Dick@new-24-208-8-245.new.rr.com) has joined channel #chatterlings
*** Mode change "+o Dick" on #chatterlings by Sandaidh

Dick: I found ye!
Ruby: Hi, Dick!
JoanZS: Hey, I never know what to expect.
Sandaidh: hiya
kayla``: hi Dick
JoanZS: Hi, Dick!
penfold: hi dick
kahtt: hi dick
Jude: hi Dick
Caitlain: I suspect it's a lot more why, and a lot less how, than Charlie was expecting.
andrew: Hi Dick
Dick: hi, all!!!!!!
kayla``: i LOVE not knowing what to expect..that's part of my BDSM kink lol
Caitlain: Hi.
Charlie: I enjoy using toys and dominating in that respeact but i DONT CALL THAT b7d
kahtt: I'm curious as to what charlie was thinking
Sandaidh: I'm finding it hard to ask questions - because I'm not quite sure *what* to ask
Dick: just got me bum spanked .....
Jude: you don't have to call it anythinng
Jude: you did?
JoanZS: Just call it fun.
Dick: aye
kayla``: labels are one of the biggest bones of contention in the BDSM 'community'
Caitlain: It is a bit overwhelming, San.
Jude: was you bein bad again Dick?
Sandaidh: or was that a fist sandwich dick ;-)
Dick: Yes, as usual, Jude.
JoanZS: Labels are a big deal anywhere, Kayla. Look at the big porn/erotica discussion we
just had AGAIN.

kayla``: lol good point JoanZS :)
Jude: LOL
Jude: very good point
Dick: I kin flirt with her; just not too seriously.
Jude: hhmm now to define 'too seriously'
kayla``: ACK!
Sandaidh: you know my rule dick - everyone does
JoanZS: Do anything you want as long as it's fun, and don't worry about "is it D/s?" I
mean, in the end, who cares? Are they going to ask you on the US census form?

Dick: yes,,,,,yes.
Sandaidh: and if they don't they find out real quick
Charlie: OK..when does b&d turn into S7M?
JoanZS: "#3A: Are you into BDSM?"
Dick: (guilty)
Caitlain: You can always tell the oldsters, they're the ones staying out of that conversation,
Dick: Cait: who are they?
Sandaidh wasn't even *there* to stay out of it
JoanZS: #3B" Are you the dom or the sub?" (remember, subs get a tax deduction)
Dick: (calculating his age)
kayla``: they are all separate Charlie
JoanZS: That's true, Caitlain. We've all been through it before.
JoanZS: But the newbies really want to know, because they come to the world of erotica
writing all confused about it. So they want some easy definitions, and sometimes they're
bummed when they find out there aren't any.
JoanZS: And the same could be said for D/s.

kayla``: bondage - the one being tied is the bottom/sub, the one doing the tying is the
Caitlain: I reiterate, they're the ones staying out of that conversation, again.
Dick: (???)
kayla``: S&M the one receiving the pain is the bottom sub, the one giving is the top
kayla``: does that help Charlie?
Sandaidh: exactly what do the letters stand for? I (a) forget, and (b) hear different things
kayla``: BDSM - Bondage, dicipline sado massichism
Charlie: I'm getting there...More than you know
kayla``: forgive the spelling - ugh
Sandaidh: and (b) is why (a) keeps happening
Jude: D/s dominant submission
JoanZS: (b) is why participants enjoy (a)
kayla``: some would say D/s has nothing to do with BDSM (thought i'd toss that in just
to confuse ya)
Dick: forgive me: going to the hot tub to release some weekly tensions with my significant
other-Mistress. Carry on. See you all soon. Hugs.
*** Signoff: Dick (Quit: )
JoanZS: (a) is an activity (b) is a condition
Jude: Kayla, shshshs
Sandaidh: hearing different hings is why people enjoy forgetting????
Caitlain: Bondage & Domination, Domination/submission, Sadism/Masochism
JoanZS: Huh?
Sandaidh: hings = things
Sandaidh: to quote you joan - (b) is why participants enjoy (a)
Ruby: Unfortunately, BDSM is a catch all for different things which may or may not be related.
Caitlain: That's from the ASSTR FAQ
JoanZS: (b) are personality traits that, when present, make (a) enjoyable to SOME people who
have those traits.

Sandaidh: prior I'd said that (a) I forget and (b) keep hearing different things
kayla``: that's very true Ruby
Charlie: OK...is anyone here willing to say how far they will go with pain?
JoanZS: Not too far, Charlie.
andrew: yup
kayla``: i'm a weenie so not very far Charlie
JoanZS: And my partner knows that.
Caitlain: Sure, Charlie.
JoanZS: Hell, he's more of a weenie than I am. Sometimes I have to tell him that I want
it harder.

Jude: bit difficult to answer that one Charlie
Ruby: Charlie, remember that in fiction, it's much more than what regular folks generally do.
kayla``: i have a play partner like that JoanZS
kahtt: my pain threshold is sub zero
JoanZS: Actually, that's not accurate. In a way, I don't TELL him anything. But I let
him know, in a subtle way, how much I can take.

Caitlain: Do you all want to hear this, or should I take Charlie into a query window.
Ruby: The sensational stuff is what sells in BDSM, just as the sensational stuff sells
better in vanilla sex.
JoanZS: That's right, Ruby. Andrew, did you see what Ruby just said?
Ruby: No one wants to read about Mr. and Mrs. Jones having an ordinary night of it.
Sandaidh: I want to know cait
kayla``: me too Caitlain
andrew: yes, I know Joan
Sandaidh: I know some, from other chats
JoanZS: Writing about BDSM is popular because the sexual tension is built in.
Sandaidh: and maybe because it's a constructive way to deal woth destructive feelings?
andrew: it's like abuse but consensual
Sandaidh: woth = with
JoanZS: Bingo, Sandaidh!
Ruby: The challenge, I think, in writing BDSM is not the sexual tension, but showing
a) consent, and b) love.
kayla``: it's not abuse if it's consensual
Caitlain: Is anyone here going to find descriptions of tools and activities objectionable.
kayla``: not me Caitlain
Charlie: nope
Ruby: I certainly won't! LOL
andrew: key word is Like
andrew: no
andrew: cait
Sandaidh: if it gets too much I can always leave cait, so dinna let me hold things up
Charlie: don't say anything you don't want to tho
JoanZS: It's a constructive way for SOME people to deal with *troubling* feelings (note
I didn't necessarily say destructive)
JoanZS: My friend has had troubling feelings toward his relationship with his father.

He's used our play to get closer to those feelings later.
Charlie: If this is what you all call B&D"s...guess what?
Charlie: I have a confession to make. LOL
Jude: oh good, all ears Charlie
Ruby: LOL Yes, Charlie?
JoanZS: I love confessions.
andrew: especially someone elses
Charlie: It's too long to write here. *s*
JoanZS: You got that one right, andrew!
Ruby: True Confessions: Film At 11!
Caitlain: Ok. Hearing no objections. Beau has a switch, which is his favorite. I 24"
long piece of carbon composite covered in braided leather with a split tongue on the end.
JoanZS: Damn it, Charlie, you got us all hot and bothered!
Jude: oh come on Charlie, nothing but time here
kayla``: this like is a write up for people trying to explain to their vanilla friends...
what BDSM is all about
Charlie: you enjoy the switch? Why?
JoanZS: That's a good link, Kayla!
Caitlain: When he swings it at arms length it can achieve speeds on excess of 70 MPH. I've
counted as many as 50 strikes of varying intensity on varying locations on my buttocks and thighs.
kayla``: DSSG is a great organization. thanks JoanZS
JoanZS: I like what it says about how the media displays a D/s that is not the same as reality.
JoanZS: I think a lot of people think it's all like what they see in videos and XXX websites,
but that's simply not true.

Caitlain: It's not about the switch, or the strikes. It's about my willingness to accept the
discipline he would impose at the end of it.
Charlie: How does the switch turn you on tho? From past history or a fantasy?
Patti42: back later folks
Caitlain: The switch doesn't turn me on. It's not about the switch.
JoanZS: See ya, Patti.
*** Signoff: Patti42 (Quit: )
Caitlain: The switch is merely a tool to exercise control.
JoanZS: It's just a prop.
kayla``: it's about allowing him to wack her
Caitlain: The control I gave him.
Jude: Charlie, she trusts Beau enough to give him that control
Charlie: you gave him?
JoanZS: He could be using a kitchen spatula, it makes no difference.
JoanZS: Sure!

Caitlain: Charlie, you don't think he could do that to me if I didn't let him do you.
JoanZS: Sure, Charlie! She can always say no.
Sandaidh shivers
Charlie: a switch can cut....a spatula just flips burgers
JoanZS: tell that to my friend, Charlie... ;-)
kayla``: a spatula hurts like hell on a bare ass Charlie
Sandaidh: cait - has beau felt the switch the same way you have?
Charlie: on a forehead tooo. LOL
JoanZS: Many tops won't try a toy on a bottom until they've tried it themselves.
Sandaidh: exactly what I was asking
Charlie: what?
Caitlain: No. Though he has applied it to himself to guage the relative effects.
JoanZS: In fact, in some circles, one must be a submissive first, before they "graduate"
to being a dom.

kayla``: but not all of them are that way
JoanZS: This is so they know what it's like.
Sandaidh: but he cannot get the full range by applying it to himself
JoanZS: Sure he can, Sand.
Sandaidh: thus he cannot know *exactly* what it's like
Ruby: Sorta like I won't ask the kids to eat something that I haven't tried myself.
Sandaidh: how does he get that velocity?
kayla``: it's Caitlain's responsibility to communicate if it's too much Sandaidh
Caitlain: You've never seen him land blows on himself. He's much harder on himself.
Sandaidh: but then it's too late because it's already happened
Ruby: That's an important point. Cait, the sub, has responsibility. It's not just the Dom.
JoanZS: That's true, too, Kayla. If it's too much, it's the bottom's responsibility to
let the top know.

Caitlain: How does a pitcher throw a 90 MPH fastball? It's just technique.
kayla``: some of us have a three tierd safe word
kayla``: Green = i'm great Yellow = careful, slow down etc, Red = STOP
Ruby: I read about that, Kayla
JoanZS: And the top has to be in constant communication with the bottom. He/she has to be
very observant.

kayla``: and it's rare a Dom will take a sub he's never played with and use a cane full force
on her
Caitlain: That is true Joan, and at first he did misapply it. I had to put the switch on my
banished list until he found some instruction on it's application. That was a four month hiatus.
kayla``: you usually start low and work up over time
JoanZS: Takes a lot of skill.
JoanZS: That's why many groups for D/s people have classes and demos on how to use toys correctly.

Charlie: so tell me this then about the toys?
Caitlain: ?
Jude: ?
andrew: ?
kayla``: ?
JoanZS: ???
Sandaidh grins (just to be different)
Jude: LOL
kahtt: About Domination and Submission - http://www.bdsm-online.com/articles/aboutds.htm
Ruby: Charlie, come with me to the next fetish fair. You'll see toys. :)
Charlie: If I use a vib on a woman and won't let her get off...time after time...till I'm
ready to she blow her top, I'm supposed to be a dom?
*** Milliardo (Bender@dialup- has joined channel #chatterlings
Jude: Charlie, it doesn't matter what you call it
kahtt: BDSM Backroom - TPE - Total Power Exchange
*** Mode change "+o Milliardo" on #chatterlings by kahtt
*** Mode change "+o Milliardo" on #chatterlings by Jude

JoanZS: You're not "supposed" to be anything, Charlie. You are, however, exhibiting
dominant behavior
Milliardo: oh, right this chat
kayla``: answer this first Charlie, WHY would you do that?
Ruby: Not necessarily. Could be.
Milliardo: Greetings Ladies and gents
Jude: hi Sas
Caitlain: Did she volunteer that control, and did you take it up, Charlie. Then it's D/s.
JoanZS: Hi, Sascha...
kayla``: hi Milliardo
andrew: hiya sascha
Caitlain: Hi Sasch.
Ruby: Charlie, BDSM is just a label for a particular type of behaviour.
kahtt: Begging In BDSM by Raven Shadowborne
kahtt: hi sas
Ruby: You don't "have" to be anything. Just enjoy it.
JoanZS: Ruby's right, Charlie.
Milliardo: have we gone over a list of resources already?
Sandaidh thinks Charlie's lady is *very* lucky
JoanZS: We've been tossing links around, Sascha.
Milliardo: Cait, Kahtt, kayla
JoanZS: The chat is rather free form, so take a seat and hang out a bit.
Milliardo: so Castlerealm.com has been mentioned?
Jude: has now... LOL
JoanZS: Why don't you give us a full URL, Sascha, so we can get it in the log?
penfold: hi sascha
Milliardo: and I've gotta plug www.hpep.org for resources as well as www.castlerealm.com
Milliardo: that work?
JoanZS: This chat is being logged, so all the links will be available later for your
surfing pleasure.

Jude: yup that works Sas
Milliardo: I'm well enough versed but I'd share any info and experience I have as a player/writer
JoanZS: that's what we've all been doing, Sascha.
kayla``: i'm looking forward to gathering up some the links that have been posted.
there's some new ones for me
JoanZS: So... another question from the floor?
Milliardo: How far have they gone Joan?
JoanZS: What do you mean, Sascha?
kayla``: Charlie, when you are playing with your lady. what's the reason you are toying
with. Is it cuz you like controling her? or is it because you like to extend her pleasure
for her?
Milliardo: How far into the fetishes have they gone?
Charlie: This has all Her pleasure
kayla``: i don't understand
Jude: Charlie, you telling us you didn't enjoy it?
Ruby: Did you enjoy being able to control her, Charlie, and being able to give her that
extended pleasure?
Charlie: To extend her pleasure. I always think of my myself last
Milliardo: Okay, thanks.
Ruby: Did it excite you to know that you could extend her pleasure by making her wait?
kayla``: ok, so it's not about 'playing' her like an instrument then. deciding when/if/how
she recieves her pleasure.
Jude: yes, but you are controlling her pleasure and enjoy doing it yes?
Charlie: I guess?
Jude: LOL
kayla``: do you gain pleasure out of 'controling' her pleasure? (not giving it - controling it)
Charlie: That's hard to answer
kayla``: that's probably the big question. if we look at it from the power point of view,
where you derive your pleasure might help you find the label you're looking for
Jude: if you need that label
Charlie: The onlt label I want is Charlie
JoanZS: Although I'm still not sure why we need labels in the first place.
Ruby: Mostly, Charlie, you enjoyed doing it, she enjoyed doing it, and you both had fun.
That's ALL that matters.
JoanZS grabs one of those "HELLO" nametags and writes "Charlie" in big capital letters,
then smacks it on his ass

Jude: nice ass Charlie
Charlie: OUCH!!!
JoanZS: Yeah -- what Ruby said!
Milliardo: One ore link for you: www.bdsmlife.net/dsworld/
JoanZS: It'll hurt more when you peel it off. :-)
Sandaidh kisses Charlie's ouchie to make it feel better
Milliardo: That's the link to a free online zine with resources, essays etc for those interested
in pursuing more information without fear
JoanZS: Awww... that's nice.
Caitlain: Labels are qualifiers. While for the most part they are useless they are descriptive,
and it's part of our nature in the Post Greco-Roman society to seek labels.
JoanZS: See, that's the other thing. After doing something relatively painful, it's SO nice
when you stop.
JoanZS: And very nice when your partner does something to take away the pain, too.
JoanZS: that's true, Caitlain. But we shouldn't get too hung up on them.

Caitlain: Yes, after-care is so very enjoyable.
Charlie: I love you guys but I have to go now. Sweet Dreams a million HUGS.
JoanZS: Sweet dreams, Charlie, come back again soon!
andrew: bye charlie
kayla``: bye Charlie
Jude: good night Charlie, watch it when you pull the label off
penfold: bye charlie
Ruby: Bye, Charlie
*** Charlie has left channel #chatterlings
Milliardo: Aftercare is VERY important depending on what goes on.
JoanZS watches Charlie leave with that big label on his butt
Jude: LOL
Caitlain: I concur on your assesment Joan. Labels are nothing more than labels and their ultimate
importance is dubious.
kahtt: missed him
*** Taibhse (sandaidh@ has joined channel #chatterlings
*** Mode change "+o Taibhse" on #chatterlings by kahtt

Caitlain: Hi San.
*** Signoff: Sandaidh (Ping timeout)
Taibhse: goddamned fucking peer jackass
kahtt: lol
Jude: they can also be real hard to fit into
kayla``: lol
*** Taibhse is now known as Sandaidh
Jude: oh dear... LOL
Ruby: Labels, by their defining nature, are also limiting.
Sandaidh: what's hard to fit into - being as I missed the whole thing
kayla``: i wonder if we were able to asnwer what ever Charlie was trying to figure out....
Sandaidh: where's charlie?
JoanZS: So true, Ruby.
kahtt: we helped him think about it differently that's for sure
Sandaidh: he get bumped too?
JoanZS: I think we gave him some food for thought, Kayla.
Caitlain: He left San, just before you came back in.
JoanZS: Charlie just left, Sand...
Sandaidh: :-(
JoanZS: No, he left on his own.
Milliardo: I hope a better understanding of the lifestyle has been reached
Jude: I'm not real sure what he was looking for
Milliardo: I must mention on my own, that some of the things i do only sound bad because "I"
make the effort to scare people
JoanZS: I'm not real sure HE knew what he was looking for!
Ruby: I think he has a lot to think about.
Caitlain: I don't think Charlie was sure, either.
kayla``: i'd agree with you there JoanZS
JoanZS: Well, it's all a part of learning and growing.
Jude: Sas, you're such a sweetie, we don't believe a word of it
Milliardo: I'm certain you gave him food for thought
Sandaidh: I think a lot of us not into it aren't sure
kayla``: it takes a while to get your feet grounded it all
kayla`` remembers her newbie days - bleh!
Ruby: I didn't really begin to understand it until I got past the lingo.
Milliardo: If one does the research one will eventually understand
Sandaidh: it's hard to get answers when you don't know what questions to ask
JoanZS: Good point, Ruby. All the lingo and labels can really screw things up.
andrew: it is a difficult concept for us old geezers to come to grips with
kayla``: i had to get past my own expectations
kahtt: BDSM is not a new lifestyle andrew ;o)
JoanZS: That's true of all beginners, Sand. I get the same statement from students in my
intro to PCs class.

Ruby: I had to learn that Dominant did not mean domineering.
Milliardo: The lovely thing Sandaidh about the community in general is that they don't mind
answering questions. I've been answering questions for Nora on this since before she left to
come see me
Ruby: Submissive did not mean subservient.
Jude: Andrew, OLD?????
Ruby: Stuff like that.
Caitlain: My newbie days were with a wonderful caring practicioner. '84-85 was a wonderful freshman year.....
JoanZS: Hey, I'm old but I'm not a geezer, Andrew! LOL!
andrew: Oh, I know that, but I have to modify 58 years of conditioning
JoanZS: Can be done, Andrew.
andrew: no Joan, youre a geezette
JoanZS: A geezette? ROFLMAO!
Jude: Joan is that anything like a geezelle?
Sandaidh: yeah right
Ruby: Oh, I like that! I'm a geezelle! LOL
JoanZS: Jude, I think it's just like a geezelle, only more klutzy.
*** Signoff: Sandaidh (Quit: Tha an t-àm agam a dhol dhan leabaidh.)
Ruby: Hey, my birthday is Thursday. I can celebrate geezelle-hood
Jude: LOL
andrew: geezelle sounds much better
Caitlain: ...all evidence to the contrary?
JoanZS: My birthday is the end of this month!
Jude: I'm not having any more
Ruby: I beat you Joan!
JoanZS: Oh, I like birthdays. I just don't like the numbers attached to them.
JoanZS claps her hands to get everyone's attention

Ruby sits at attention.
Milliardo: was that a dommely clap?
JoanZS: Okay, now that we've moved on to the topic of birthdays, shall we declare the BDSM
discussion over for now and go on to more general topics?
JoanZS: I just want to know where to cut off the chat log
Ruby: Stick a fork in it, it's done.
JoanZS: (That is, if this stupid computer even saved the chat log...)
andrew: finew with me
kayla``: well i'm gonna drift off and read the zillion email (flashers) that are waiting
my attention
kayla``: see ya all later :)
Jude: I'm going to take off you guys, my butt is getting very flat here
Milliardo: I'll be interested to read the log for this
JoanZS: Okay, I think I have to leave to get it to stop logging. I'll leave, but maybe
I'll be right back.
JoanZS: The log will be posted, Sascha. Stay tuned.
Milliardo: Will do
*** Signoff: kayla`` (Quit: )
JoanZS: Thanks for a great discussion! You've all done very well!
Log file closed at: 4/5/02 10:02:23 PM

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